In this episode of the Trusted Adviser Podcast, Rob Pyne interviews Rod Bertino from Business Health, discussing the evolution of advisory practices and the importance of helping advisors transition into successful business owners. They explore the significance of benchmarking, the current war for talent in the advisory sector, and the rising cybersecurity risks associated with hybrid work environments. Rod shares insights from a recent salary and remuneration report, emphasizing the need for firms to articulate their value to retain talent and build a strong company culture, especially when onboarding new staff in a hybrid setting.

In this conversation, Rob and Rod discuss the importance of understanding client value, team engagement, and the role of technology in financial advice. They emphasize the significance of independent business valuations and the implications of succession planning for financial advisory firms. The discussion highlights the need for firms to focus on their core values, the impact of technology on business processes, and the importance of preparing for the future to ensure the longevity and value of their businesses.

LISTEN

SHOW NOTES

Topics Discussed

Business valuation and integrity of data
Talent war and team retention strategies
Hybrid work infrastructure and cybersecurity risks
Impact of aging client base on business valuation
Role of culture, career development, and compensation
Why great financial advisors do not automatically become great business owners.
The importance of high-integrity benchmarking and reliable business data.
The growing “war for talent” in financial advice businesses.
Why client support and back-office roles are becoming more valuable.
Building culture and connection in hybrid work environments.
Cybersecurity risks created by remote work arrangements.
Why client feedback matters more than technical investment expertise.
The “three C’s” of attracting and retaining great team members.
Managing poor cultural fit and underperformance within teams.
The reality of AI adoption inside advice practices.
How technology can amplify broken processes if workflows are not fixed first.
Independent practice valuations and the factors driving business value.
The impact of aging client demographics on practice valuations.
Why buyers value engaged teams, organic growth, and scalable systems.
The hidden risk for self-licensed firms with a sole responsible manager.
Business continuity and succession planning for advice firms.

Episode Highlights

(Timestamps are approximate)

[00:00] – Introduction to Rod Bertino and Business Health
[02:47] – Why advisory skill sets differ from business ownership skills
[04:06] – The importance of benchmarking integrity and quality data
[08:55] – Key findings from the salary and remuneration report
[13:27] – Why demand for client support staff is rapidly increasing
[16:32] – Cybersecurity risks in hybrid work environments
[21:56] – Building culture and onboarding staff in remote teams
[25:10] – Why talent has become the new battleground for advice firms
[27:23] – Retaining staff through culture, career development, and leadership
[30:13] – The power of client stories and feedback in building team purpose
[35:52] – The “three C’s” framework for attracting and retaining talent
[39:47] – Managing poor performers before culture deteriorates
[41:46] – The reality of AI adoption inside advice businesses
[46:20] – What most firms misunderstand about business valuations
[52:53] – The biggest factors increasing or reducing practice value
[58:12] – Why buyers prefer scalable technology and investment systems
[01:00:00] – The hidden succession risk for self-licensed firms
[01:01:19] – What happens when a sole responsible manager disappears
[01:04:09] – Why business continuity planning is essential for families and clients

Quotes

“Most owners are really talented advisors. Running a successful small business is a very different beast.” – Rod Bertino
“The war for talent is the new advisory practice battleground.” – Rod Bertino
“There is no remote work. There’s only work.” – Rod Bertino
“If the process is broken, technology won’t fix it. It will just help you do more broken stuff faster.” – Rod Bertino
“If they joined you for money, they will leave you for money.” – Rod Bertino
“Culture, career development, and compensation. In that order.” – Rob Pyne
“Clients rarely talk about asset allocation. They talk about trust, understanding, and confidence.” – Rod Bertino
“The bad stuff happens to good people as well.” – Rod Bertino
“If you go under that proverbial bus, potentially that capital value goes to zero.” – Rod Bertino
“You have an obligation to your clients, your family, and your staff members to put a plan in place.” – Rod Bertino

Key Takeaways

Business Health helps advisors become successful business owners.
The skill set for advising differs from running a business.
Data integrity in benchmarking is crucial for meaningful insights.
The war for talent is the new battleground for advisory firms.
Cybersecurity risks have increased with hybrid work environments.
Onboarding new staff in a hybrid setting requires intentionality.
Advisory firms need to articulate their value to retain talent.
The demand for client support roles is rising in advisory practices.
Building a strong company culture is essential in hybrid work.
Feedback from clients is often overlooked by advisory firms. Understanding what clients truly value is crucial.
Team engagement is enhanced by sharing client feedback.
Compensation should not be the primary focus for candidates.
The three C’s: culture, career development, and compensation matter.
Hiring decisions should align with firm values and culture.
Technology won’t fix broken processes; it can amplify them.
Independent valuations provide objective insights into business worth.
Aging client bases can significantly impact business valuations.
Succession planning is essential for maintaining business value.
Firms should prepare for unforeseen circumstances to protect their legacy.

Resources & Links

The Trusted Adviser: https://thetrustedadviser.com.au/
Business Health: http://www.businesshealth.com.au/
Connect with Rob Pyne on LinkedIn
Connect with Rod Bertino on LinkedIn
Follow The Trusted Adviser Podcast

TRANSCRIPT

Rob (00:01.582)

Welcome Rod Bertino to the Trusted Advisor podcast.

Rod Bertino (00:04.824)

Thank you, Rob. Glad to join you.

Rob (00:06.81)

I’ve been looking forward to this chat rod. We had a pre-chat as I do with every guest coming on and business self do more than I remember. You’ve been around forever you guys, but then you were telling me all the things that you’re still doing in the market and not just in Australia, but you travel quite extensively to the US now and you’ve got some big clients over there as well. So it was really good to reconnect and actually just get an update on what was going on in the business health world. You’ve been operating the business since 2000. That’s 26 years. In a profession that has changed almost beyond recognition. I was doing it then as well. What was the original problem you guys set out to solve and what’s changed since then?

Rod Bertino (00:38.893)

Yeah that’s when we look back to when we first started rob as you say twenty six years ago and some days it seems like an eternity and other days it seems like yesterday which is the case in my small businesses i think so things have changed some things have changed as you say almost unrecognisably but some things have remained constant and i think the very core of what we do and why we started business health was to help advisors run better businesses what we knew and what we’ve learned and been reinforced since is most owners are really talented advisors they don’t need our help to be better advisors and if they need help in that space there’s a number of really good people that can help them that wasn’t the space we wanted to play in as what we knew was as talented as the owners were in the advice space. Running a successful small business was a very different beast and required a very different skill set so and what we saw was there was no one out there helping talented advisors to become successful business owners and operators and that was something we were passionate about that was something we believed we could help with and that was at the core of why we set up business health and to this day nothing’s changed at all. We’re still helping advisory firm owners run successful businesses. Now that can look like different things depending upon the firm. If it’s a new, younger firm then growth is important. If it’s a well established firm that may be looking at transitioning the original owners out in second generation then we can help there too. So one size doesn’t fit all but at the core of what we do is helping business owners run better businesses.

Rob (02:47.137)

Yeah, that’s veteran level experience too, because of all the businesses you’ve seen over the years, you’ve seen so much of what has worked in businesses, what’s made them successful, what are the ingredients, and also what’s perhaps held them back, because they are quite distinct skill sets, aren’t they? You can be a great advisor, a great technician, but as the E-Myth book talks about from Michael Gerber. Technicians don’t always make good managers and don’t make good entrepreneurs always, but if you get in there and help them, you can help them level that up and start to think like a business owner, not just as a technician.

Rod Bertino (03:17.676)

Yep that’s exactly right and the skill sets are so different. The skill set needed to be a really talented successful financial advisor is a very different skill set to owning and running and managing a successful small to medium sized business. So I think the firms we have most success with the firms we’re able to add the most help to it’s a mindset shift Rob in that the owners acknowledge that perhaps they don’t have all the skills that they need or perhaps they could be better at this or perhaps opening their mind to some external advice could add value and once that mind shift happens then we start to see some real meaningful change and improvement at practice level.

Rob (04:06.114)

Yeah, fantastic. Now you guys built your reputation on benchmarking. That was the thing I remember most about business health. We did it ourselves. We’ve done it more than once. How do you ensure the integrity of the data you collect from firms? Because I see benchmarking studies a lot and I’m thinking self-reported data doesn’t always sort of stack up. So how do you help businesses? Let me start that again. How do you ensure the integrity of the data you collect from firms so that when you tell a practice there above or below the peer group, that number actually means something?

Rod Bertino (04:38.616)

Yeah, it’s a great question and I think it’s prudent to be a little skeptical of some of the benchmarking data that’s out there, As the old saying goes, if you’re not paying for the product then you are the product. So, if you’re getting your benchmarking data from a free website where you put in 10 or 12 data points and it spits back then in itself it might be valuable it might give you a framework to work within but we believe in the age old adage of prescription without diagnosis equals malpractice and that’s the same with financial advisors that resonates with financial advisors because it’s the same with them and their clients so before we…

Rob (05:20.068)

Yeah.

Rod Bertino (05:29.568)

… undertake any significant engagement with an advice firm, we want to look at the numbers. Because quite often the problem that they’re presenting with may be a symptom of a greater problem or it may be the cause. We don’t know so before we start work we want to have a look at under the bonnet at the business. So we’ll collect the numbers to help us with the consulting work we do. So we get P &L statements, get balance sheets, we get three years, five years history and we do quite a detailed analysis on that to help us then make meaningful contribution on the consulting side. All of our data isn’t collected through an online survey, it’s collected from firms who have come to us for help. So we believe the integrity of our data is probably preeminent in the Australian advice marketplace because it’s all collected first hand from firms we work with or are looking to work with us and if we do get numbers that we’ve been doing this a long time as you said, you get a feel for it and sometimes if you are, if we are given a number that just appears outside of what we would normally expect. We’ll continue to work with the firm and we may question it but if there’s any doubt about the integrity of that data point we don’t put it in our benchmarking data set. We’ll still work with the firm, we’ll still do what we can on a consulting side won’t pollute our benchmarking data set with a number that just doesn’t feel right to us. So that’s how we keep the integrity of the data. We use a two-year rolling data set as well Rob because there’s not much point benchmarking a business against numbers from five years ago, pre-pandemic for example. So we keep that rolling two-year data set in terms of being able to provide a current marketplace benchmark for our clients.

Rob (07:40.281)

Yeah, with that approach that you take to gathering data directly, it reminds me of how financial planners would typically go about doing a fact-finding. Back in the day, we’d sort of fill it out, talk to the client face-to-face, answer their questions, but the reality is we know they don’t know the information offhand, out of the top of their head. So getting all those proof points, getting the…

Rod Bertino (07:56.184)

Yep.

Rob (08:00.506)

… evidence of what’s really going on, that would set you up so well to do more than just that benchmarking study because now you’ve got all the rich data set to actually do a number of other things that you do do as a business and we’ll get into some of those in a moment. But I can see that’s a high integrity way of going about it, the way we do it obviously when we’re gathering data for our clients to give them advice, you’ve got to get the evidence, you’ve got to get the statements and you’ve got to look through the data set because they can’t remember that stuff off the top of their head.

Rod Bertino (08:23.17)

Yep. That and it’s it’s labor intensive there are easier ways to do it but we believe it produces the best result and as you say we’ve been doing this for a long long time now our reputation is strong in that our data set can be relied upon it can be used to frame decisions and actions going forward so we believe it’s worth the extra effort to ensure the integrity of the data that we’re using.

Rob (08:55.96)

Yeah, which makes your latest report, I think it’s your latest report, really valuable. I’ve got it right here. Here it is. For what it’s worth, you’ve done the report for the advisory of Iris, which was a salary and remuneration report. And it actually uncovered some pretty confronting findings, I thought. What were the two or three things that genuinely surprised you in that research study and what should practice owners be doing with that information right now?

Rod Bertino (09:27.03)

Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting if you take a step back, the reason we did this research project Rob was that a lot of our clients were coming to us and saying, hey our staff are putting pressure on for salary increases or for an enhanced suite of benefits. What is the average salary being paid to a junior advisor or a client service manager or a paraplanner or whatever role within the advice business and quite frankly there we couldn’t find any reliable reputable industry specific benchmarks to use. So we did that ourselves in the true business health passion. If it’s not there and we think it’s important, well we’ll build it. So we went to a couple of hundred firms who we know well and said, hey would you be interested in the aggregated findings if you participate and tell us what you’re paying your people. And we had almost a hundred percent take up. So that shows the interest in this area.

Rob (10:32.602)

Absolutely.

Rod Bertino (10:33.858)

The number one finding Rob, from our perspective, was that the war for talent is the new advisory practice battleground. Sustained success will no longer be predicated on how good the owner or the senior advisor is. Sustained success will be delivered through how good is the team because even if they want to, the owner can’t work, no one yet has found a way to work more than twenty four hours in any one day even if you want to. So the complexity of running an advice business is now so great there are so many moving parts, the issues you’ve got to be across, it’s impossible for one person to be fully across that. So that means talented employees within the business to do whatever role it is you’ve allocated them is just incredibly important. this research reinforced that and to highlight the war for talent 68 % of the firms that participated told us they’re looking to add to their team in the coming 12 months. So two out of every three Australian advice firms are looking to bring more people on in the coming year. Good people are going to be hard to find and they’re going to be hard to keep because even if you’re not looking to recruit two out of three of your competitors are and they’re going to be looking for quality experience people. They don’t want your worst performer they want your best performer. even if you’re not in the market to bring new people on your best people are targets for your competitors. So that was the key finding. Interestingly for the first time that I can remember the demand for client facing support people is outstripping demand for advisors. More practices are looking to beef up their back office, their client support team than they are their advice team. So I thought that was an interesting shift in the last few years and traditionally the non-advice roles in advice practices haven’t been the rock star positions. The advisors have been thrown all the benefits have been paid the higher salaries have been given the flexibility. Our advice to all the practice owners we’re dealing with is seriously sit and look at what you offer your non-advisory team just as carefully as you look at what you offer your advisors.

Rob (13:27.354)

Do you draw any conclusions from that rod of why is it that all of a sudden there’s this sort of extra demand for that client services support role? Because we’ve seen that too, and we’ve seen that pressure probably, maybe less pressure per se, but certainly the benchmarking data that we use, and now we’ll be using yours as well, just to cross reference.

Rod Bertino (13:51.072)

That’s it.

Rob (13:52.315)

We’ve seen that there’s been significant shift in the salary expectations for that role. Is that demand driven in your view? And what’s maybe driving that, do think?

Rod Bertino (14:01.346)

Yeah, I think it’s a mix Rob, think some of it’s demand driven but I think some of it is also the principles of these practices are now realising that their face-to-face advisors are very expensive, probably the most expensive resource in the business. So they’re now becoming very mindful of everything their advisors do and are they doing the five hundred dollar an hour tasks or are they getting bogged down with fifty dollar an hour tasks both tasks are really important both tasks have got to be done exceptionally well on time every time but you don’t want your highest paid resource spending time and effort that’s not delivering the best return on the investment so as practice owners come to realize that more rob they’re saying well how can i free up my advisor how can i take these four things that they’re currently getting involved in off their plate so in essence our advisors see clients prospects centers of influence and do some professional development anything outside of that can we have done by someone more appropriate either at a pay level or skill set level because let’s be honest most advisors don’t make great administrators either that’s not their skill set so you don’t want them involved in administration you don’t want them learning the interests of ExPlan and SOA development you want them talking to clients or people who will refer you clients so I think as owners come to grips with that they’re building out this used to be called the back office roles and they want good people who understand the process who can talk to a client but not give advice and hence the need and the demand for that role is growing and I don’t think we’ve even scratched the surface yet Rob to be brutally honest

Rob (16:01.73)

Yeah, we talked a bit of footy before we started recording. You’re a Melbourne Demons fan and I’ve heard this described as building out your midfield. You might have key position players. You’ve got your forwards and your backs that kick the goals perhaps, but yeah, you need your midfield. And I kind of like that analogy. You got to get the people that’ll get the ball and get it to the forwards to kick the goals. So yeah, it’s a good.

Rod Bertino (16:04.034)

Yeah, right. You can have the best full forward in the world but if the ball doesn’t get down there then the million dollars you’re paying them a year may not be the best use of your money.

Rob (16:32.154)

Yeah, I like it. Now, something else your research flagged that I thought was interesting, really interesting, you said, many practices are allowing hybrid work without putting in the right infrastructure. So you’ve got no dedicated hardware for those people working from home, no secure Wi-Fi, no real cybersecurity provisions for those team members. How serious in your view is the risk exposure? And what’s your advice to principals who haven’t thought this through thoroughly?

Rod Bertino (16:59.096)

Yeah, yeah. I think it’s a huge risk and I think it’s one that has crept in under the radar as we work through the pandemic and we work through post pandemic recovery and as you mentioned, we do a lot of work in America and there’s a commentator over there that coined the phrase, there is no remote work, there’s only work which we love because we think that’s so true. So, hybrid’s the new norm now. We say to all the practices we’re working with, it’s ultimately it’s your call, this is your business and you build and grow it the way you want. But if you’re mandating all of your people to be in the office five days a week, nine to five, you are severely limiting the talent pool available to you. Hybrid, especially client service administrative people, they’re looking for a hybrid work environment. If you can’t or won’t offer that, that’s fine. As I say, that’s your call, but you will severely be limiting the talent pool that’s available to you. Having said that, if you do have hybrid people, you still have an obligation to provide a fit safe proper workplace and when you’ve got people accessing systems remotely the opportunity for cyber fraud crime increases exponentially so we believe it’s the number one risk out there at the moment most firms are still using email to communicate it’s not secure it’s a huge risk probably one they’re not fully cognizant of they’re aware of it but i think generally they downplay the risk and it’s it’s not a matter of if it’s a matter of when the next advice practices practices hit with a with a big breach. So our advice would be, we’re not experts in this, we understand the risk. We definitely understand the cost of a breach and we’ve seen it from industry peers over the last couple of years. Our advice is bring in an expert to do an audit. It’s better you find the weak spots in your system than the bad actors and if there are weak spots.

Rob (19:12.442)

Yeah.

Rod Bertino (19:36.962)

Then you need to plug them. So spend a bit of money, bring in an expert, do an audit and then make some informed decisions about how you strengthen your protocols.

Rob (19:48.185)

Yeah, it’s such an important point, isn’t it, that one? And as you say, you’ve identified it as the biggest risk. I would totally agree with you. People working from home, if they’re using their own PC and they’re working in their own home Wi-Fi, along with their kids and their kids’ friends, all using the same Wi-Fi, it’s extremely exposed to risk. And if you’re not handing out prescribed PCs with all the appropriate software on it and having your staff use those, if it’s laptops or desktops, but…

Rod Bertino (20:11.042)

Yep. You are really leaving yourself wide open to bad actors to take your client data. And as you say, you’ve seen it firsthand, businesses that have been caught by bad actors and just the cost is so significant. And I’ve seen people present at conferences talking about their experience of going through it it’s frightening to hear. So it’s a really important point. That’s why I wanted to double down on it and emphasize the point because it’s something that we’re certainly taking very seriously. It’s the one risk.

Rob (20:47.524)

People think about having insurance for someone to break in and steal your computers through the window out the door, but that’s not the biggest risk. It’s this one because, yeah.

Rod Bertino (20:56.334)

That’s exactly right. And it’s probably not the core system, an ExPlan for example. People say, I’ll use ExPlan and it’s in the cloud and it’s secured and Iris has spent millions and millions and they haven’t, all that’s true. That’s probably not the biggest risk. The biggest risk is the transfer of information usually via email outside of an ExPlan environment or not locking down the hardware room. So if people can download apps and install applications onto their work computer then immediately you’ve quadrupled, exponentially increased your risk no matter what that app is and no matter how secure they may think it is. Get an audit done by a professional that knows what to look for and then make some informed decisions about what you need to do.

Rob (21:51.565)

Absolutely.

Rod Bertino (21:51.567)

It’s too big a risk to just let run and think it’s going to be someone else

Rob (21:56.975)

Yeah, totally agree. So let’s talk a bit more about the hybrid work environment. You said it’s very manageable for an established team. But what about when you’re actually onboarding new people? It creates real problems for how do you build and sustain culture when your team is in the same room together? How do people manage that when they’re onboarding new staff that want to be working from home two or three days a week?

Rod Bertino (22:04.78)

Yeah. The only way we’ve seen it work Rob is it’s got to be very very intentional from the owner down. As you say an established team who have worked together probably pre-pandemic where they all work together in an office for a number of years, relationships are established that can transition to a hybrid environment relatively easily but when you add a brand new person into that team that doesn’t have the connections that doesn’t have the confidence to perhaps pick up the phone and contact a senior employee to ask for help they can quickly feel very isolated, very alone, very inadequate no one likes to badger someone on this is the fifth question i’ve had to ask today probably was told that but i’ve forgotten that all those feelings are natural but at least them out on an island on their own so the senior managers and the owners need to be so intentional about bringing them in consistently, regularly to form those bonds so that when they’re back out in their home office they do have some framework to fall back on. They do have a stronger relationship. So it’s things like perhaps it’s a hybrid working environment. people, we are coming into the office not 9 to 5, 5 days a week but make sure everyone’s in or all the key people in a team are all in the office at the same time rather than when they’re in their office they’re still not building those connections because their peers aren’t. So having a common day to be in there. Events work still. So run social events, run culture building events, run team building events, have some fun. What we do is really serious and the outcomes change people’s lives but that doesn’t mean it can’t be a fun place to work and enjoy the people we work with so again there’s no right answer there’s no rule book to this where you open up to chapter 7 that says here’s how you build and grow culture in a remote environment but make it intentional spend some money on it because you got to spend some money on it fund it and never be afraid. Don’t lose sight of the importance of picking up the phone. As a senior leader or an owner of the firm to just pick up the phone and talk to your employees that may be working for no other reason to see how they’re traveling, how are they feeling especially your newer hires how you’re fitting in what’s it like the power of a senior leader picking up the phone is probably one of the most influential things you can do to build and grow culture in a hybrid environment

Rob (25:10.266)

Good advice. Yeah, especially as you talk about the talent war that is the new battleground. Why do you think that’s, let’s go back to that for a second. Why do you think that pendulum has swung so much away from people were worried about finding the next client and that was kind of the battleground to sort of win the brand and visibility of your practice and have enough clients walking through the door, but it’s, that doesn’t seem to be an issue anymore. Everyone I talked to said we’ve got more clients that we can handle.

Rod Bertino (25:14.274)

Yeah.

Rob (25:36.602)

We don’t really need to do a lot more in marketing because we just literally don’t have the team, I guess, to support the growth. And perhaps that’s where the pressure white swung to that demand for talent, just to keep up with the demand.

Rod Bertino (25:43.33)

Yeah, agree entirely. Maybe it’s askew with the firms we work with Rob because they are generally well established firms that have profile and presence. But even the newer firms, finding new client doesn’t seem to be a problem for the vast majority of firms we’re working with. Now maybe that’s reflective of the advisor shortage as well. Maybe it’s reflective of the boomer demographic moving through the work cycle retirement and retirement funding and planning is now more important when you’re 58 than when you’re 28 but whatever it is access to new client is not a problem access to capital is not a problem for most most firms there’s money out provided you can put forward a solid business case there’s money there’s capital out there to do what you may need to do you know that i think rub the issue is how do we get this work out the back door how do we get it completed timely accurately efficiently effectively that comes down to what we need good people not just good advisors because we’ve spent a bit of time and effort building that up and most firms have got that core advisory base as we said earlier they’re now turning their focus to how can we best support them so they do what they do exceptionally well just more of it hence focus on the back rooms

Rob (27:23.618)

Yeah, now you said there a little bit ago that around two in three businesses that you did this study on remuneration with, they said they were looking to hire more staff. So they’re out there trying to recruit, they’re likely to try and be talking to your best people and try to take them off you. And because if you’re not looking after your staff, then they’re going to be naturally open to alternatives. What do you think the honest answer is that most practices don’t have ready at supporting and retaining their team?

Rod Bertino (27:34.702)

Yep. Always dangerous to generalize but if I generalize the owners and this does fall to an owner or senior leadership position aren’t great at articulating why us.

Rob (28:12.088)

Yep.

Rod Bertino (28:12.098)

Why should you join us, why should you stay with us. Most firms are doing a lot of really good stuff they’re just not great at articulating that, reinforcing it, reminding the people of all the benefits they provide above and beyond the paycheck every second Thursday and that’s important you can’t be out of the market in terms of your remuneration but that alone may not be enough to bring attract and retain the people you want or the people you need to achieve your three to five year goals. So money will always be important but there’s always someone that will outspend you. There are people out there that will throw money at this write bigger checks than you will be and some people that will be enough. They’ll move from you or they’ll not join you because one of your competitors is offering more dollars. But some people want more than that some people want that tight community they want access to the leaders they want they want to feel a part of something not just a number of cog in a big machine they want to see their work they do make a difference in people’s lives there’s a lot of other things a lot of other benefits good advice practices can offer their employees above and beyond a paycheck i don’t think generally we’re good at articulating all those.

Rob (29:44.537)

Yeah, you’ve made some really good points there and as you were talking it through, I’m thinking to myself, how are we doing this and what are we doing here? Because it is, as say, much more than the salary. It’s about feeling that sense of connectedness of the team. Have we got a good environment where people like each other and get along well? And there’s that sort of camaraderie that they believe they’re doing something really purposeful, the work they’re doing, and they see the impact of that directly because they’re not too distant from the client interaction, even if they’re actually in the client services team, they’re actually talking to clients.

Rod Bertino (30:11.746)

Yep.

Rob (30:13.55)

We had an all team offsite on Friday and we had one of our clients come and speak to our team and it was the highlight of the whole session. We talked about mission and vision and values but the client that came in and spoke, as it happens, I went to Sydney a few weeks ago and jumped on the plane, sat on the aisle as I’d like to sit on the aisle and this lady walked in and she was sitting in the middle seat. She asked me to pop up so she could sit down and I…

Rod Bertino (30:18.637)

Yeah.

Rob (30:39.012)

She sat down, I sat back down and grabbed my laptop out and laptops are all obviously company issued with their own logo on them on the outside and she saw HPH on the actual on the laptop. And she said, I’m a client of yours, HPH. And I said, really? And I shook her hand and introduced myself and we had a good chat for about an hour and a half and she was so interesting, her life, her story, how advice had impacted her and her husband and their children.

Rod Bertino (30:44.067)

Yeah.

Rob (31:08.474)

I thought, wow, I really want my team to hear this. So she was amazing. She came in for our all team offsite and sat there and just shared her story. And she’s had some health challenges and such an interesting sort of journey that her and her husband have been on that it was. at the end, after all of our team stuck around for a few drinks to sort of hang out after the day, the common theme was, wow, she was amazing. That was the highlight of the day. It’s just because people get to hear.

Rod Bertino (31:10.742)

Yeah, great.

Rob (31:38.5)

Personally what impact advice has had in the lives of fair and a family. yeah, super, super important point.

Rod Bertino (31:43.117)

Yep.

Rod Bertino (31:46.555)

So it’s really interesting Rob because one of the other things we do at Business Health is we will work with a practice to survey their clients confidentially and anonymously clients tell us what their advisor and advisory firm does well, what could they do better, how do they rate the key service delivery areas and we’ve had over sixty thousand Australian clients not shadow shoppers, real fee paying clients tell us what they think of their advisor and not once in over sixty thousand responses have I read I love my advisors SOAs the way they structure those paragraphs we rarely read about the asset allocation or the individual stocks that may be being held in the portfolio we read a lot about trust and understanding and confidence and all the things that great advisory firms do above and beyond the vehicles they use to invest money or to build a retirement nest egg or retirement income. So we still shake your head that given that and given work were all in a service industry no matter how complicated these were in the business of providing service less than a third of a strain of boss practices pay their clients the courtesy of asking for feedback we’re is we may be assuming that what might value most is that it’s a lawyer or the asset allocation or whatever and i might be that client base.

Rob (33:24.026)

I don’t think you are Rod.

Rod Bertino (33:26.156)

Well, they don’t know. That’s my point, Rob.

Rob (33:28.409)

Yeah.

Rod Bertino (33:28.718)

I would be happy to be proven wrong if they do a confidential and anonymous survey and it comes back and everyone says I don’t care too much about the quality of your staff, I love your asset allocation. I’d be surprised but at least good decisions based on quality data again. not enough firms know whatit is their clients truly do value or sometimes they need reminding ala your example of. Let’s hear it from the client’s mouth. Let’s hear what value most about what we do.

Rob (34:02.926)

Yeah, absolutely. If you want to get your team to believe in the value of what they’re doing, just hear it from the clients, hear what they’re saying. we always, when anyone writes a Google review for us, we share it on all team meeting on a Monday, just to make sure everyone knows this is what’s happening out there in our clients’ lives and how they feel about what we’re doing for them. And you mentioned there’s some really important points around, you know, there’s other firms that will be out there trying to maybe…

Rod Bertino (34:15.404)

Yep.

Rob (34:30.276)

Pay top dollar to get your best talent across to work with them. And there are plenty of different professions people can go into. if compensation, if salary is the number one ticket item, we really look for when we’re talking to new potential candidates to join our team, looking for, I guess, evidence that what’s important to them, it’s compensation is not the first one. If it’s the first one, we’ve got a bit of a concern.

Rod Bertino (34:54.648)

Yeah.

Rob (34:56.558)

We think about it this way. And when I spoke to you about this, when we did our pre-episode chat, you really did sort of lit up when I, light up when I mentioned this, was, we talk about the three C’s, culture, career, development, and compensation in that order. I’ve been calling it the three C’s. And why does getting that order right really matter? And what’s it like when practices maybe get it wrong and focus on the wrong order there because we want people to say, I want to work with a great team. I want to be building my career and feel like I can make progress. And they don’t even say, they don’t say that they want to get a really strong salary. That’s kind of a given. It doesn’t get mentioned, but they’ve got to be saying, I want to be part of a great team and I want to really have my career develop. If they’re saying those things as first port of call, then we think they’re a pretty good candidate for us along with a few other exercises we take them through. So tell me about your perspective on that.

Rod Bertino (35:52.047)

I love it Robin, I’m going to steal it, those three C’s. I think that encapsulates everything that we believe in for the vast majority of advisory firms. If you’re having compensation discussions early on then you’re right, that is an indication of the thought process not right not wrong but maybe not the best fit for you where people you ask what happens if you get those things in the wrong order or you get one of those three C’s outweighing the other is they will look if they joined you for money they will leave you for money and if they’re not truly committed to the core purpose and the values of your firm then they’re not bad people it’s just that the final C in the three C’s outweighs the others and they’ll leave for a few dollars more and the owner is then left with a bigger hole than probably they started with because we all know the disruption of finding someone, bringing them in, training them to then lose them and start again. So it’s a great way to look at it. No right or wrong, but the people you bring into your firm must truly believe in your value proposition and your values and hold those things and the culture of the firm just as importantly as you do. Otherwise you’ll have a bad apple and one bad apple can spoil. Interestingly the mistake we see far too often is most of the time we know, Rob, you get a feel for okay we did everything we should have, we did our vetting, we checked all the references but for whatever reason this isn’t working out. We don’t think it’s… we’re worried about long-term so we tend to throw more training at it. we’ll train the person more, we’ll send them on some courses or we’ll move them into a different role. Sometimes it works, rarely. The mistake we see far too often is we hang on too long if it’s not working if you’re not really confident that you can address the problem and get a hundred ninety degree turnaround then it’s probably best both for the employee and the firm that you part ways do it respectfully do it professionally but we tend to know but we tend we’re slow to act and that’s noticed by our people. Hang on, I’m coming in on the weekend not because I have to but because I’m committed to doing a great job. Hang on, I’m picking up the workload of my teammates not because I have to but that’s what we do here and here’s this person that’s doing none of that that’s getting well-paid that’s not contributing in all the other areas that has an impact on your culture don’t think that that’s not seen and noticed and felt by the other team members so your worst case scenario is the bad performer stays and you lose two of your best people because they don’t think you’re serious about the culture and the commitment to that culture that’s why you’re keeping this poor performer this bad apple two-thirds of the competitors are looking to recruit half of them want you back office people you don’t want your best performance disenchanted with your leadership style your leadership decisions because they find will ring and you don’t want to having negative thoughts when the headhunter’s on the other end of that fine offering them what could be they dream role

Rob (39:47.043)

Absolutely. It’s something I think that point is so true of many firms. You find yourself talking about an individual for multiple occasions. You’re talking about them and thinking they’re causing a few issues here. And as you say, we want to believe the best in people and we give them the benefit of the doubt for too long sometimes, all the while damaging the workflow and your reputation as a leader.

Rod Bertino (39:57.525)

You… the core of what you’ve…

Rob (40:16.6)

Yeah, because the people that doing the work are thinking. Thanks very much for sort of not getting this person to perform. So I have to pick up the pieces. yeah, you have to think about it as what’s good for the business here. Because you worry about too much about the individual. You’re thinking about the person that’s obviously not meeting the expectations of the role. You’re thinking too much about them and not thinking about the business and what it needs. Because if you take a step back and say, does the business most need here? You realize it’s not that person. They’re not able to measure up for the role.

Rod Bertino (40:20.845)

Yeah. That’s right.

Rob (40:49.34)

Their best to find a role that’s better suited to them and that’s better for the business overall.

Rod Bertino (40:52.792)

That’s Yep, and you’re not even doing the best thing by that person. Because for whatever reason, they can’t perform the role you want them to. Keeping them in that role for an extended period is not helping them at all. Let alone the detriment it’s causing to the business and the culture and the other people. So you’re right. You’re right. But generally we tend to hang on too long.

Rob (40:58.073)

Yeah, we’re talking about people, so let’s switch to the other side of the coin because technology is on everyone’s top of mind and everyone’s lips at the moment around the hype around AI in financial advice. You’re seeing something different on the ground from your research and studies at the moment. What’s actually happening from your point of view in practices and why do you think so many firms are going to be disappointed if they treat AI as a silver bullet here?

Rod Bertino (41:46.295)

Yep, What’s happening is not as important as what’s not happening. What long-winded way of saying there is far more talk around this space, Rob, than actual on-the-ground implementation. And don’t get me wrong, I get really, really excited about the possibilities that AI present. It’s just mind-blowing. But as we speak today there’s not a hell of a lot of significant implementation happening at firm level and of course there’s the exceptions the early adopters that have thrown a lot of money at it that developed solutions and they are a long way down the track but generally speaking most firms aren’t and it’s interesting that that’s creating a bit of fear of missing out with the owners there’s so much you can’t read any of the industry press on any day without one or two articles about how you are in there so that the feeling i have is well a lot of people are doing this we’re not. Are we being left behind and do we need to accelerate and do we need to spend more money on this or do we need to bring in different skill sets to help us all of that may be true but don’t think that if you’re not at the cutting edge then you’re mile behind because you’re not sure there are firms out there that are doing some amazing stuff but generally speaking most firms are still grappling with what can it do and what do we want it to do and how do we get it to do that? That’s the challenge at ground level.

Rob (43:33.69)

Yeah, and you made the point when we’re talking about this, that if the process is broken, technology won’t fix it. It’ll just make the brokenness faster or more expensive,

Rod Bertino (43:37.625)

Yeah exactly get to do more of the broken stuff quicker and more and it’s interesting rob the other the other key piece and we’re not tech specialists we bring in tech experts to help us with our clients in this area and the tech people they could they’re passionate and their products are fantastic and when you listen to the sales pitch their products can do anything

Rob (43:44.418)

Yeah, and-

Rod Bertino (44:05.876)

In fact they can do stuff that you don’t even know existed yet our advice to the firms we’re working with is keep very much top of mind what problem are we trying to solve here and the eight bells and whistles that it can possibly do that that might be great but if it doesn’t solve your core issue the core business problem you’re trying to solve then all those ancillary benefits are probably distractions to be honest so our advice when you’re looking at this is very much keep focus on what problem are we trying to solve here and does this app this piece of tech do that and if it does

Rob (44:48.442)

That’s great advice. I’ve worked with some people in this tech space before and they, the best of them actually tell you to do that first. They’ll say, write down what it is you’re trying to solve for. And then if you’re going to talk to vendors of technology that are going to potentially support you, they’ll come in with their own pitch as to what they can do, but that can easily very much distract you from what it is you’re trying to solve for. So stay true to what you’re trying to solve for and…

Rod Bertino (44:55.587)

Yeah.

Rob (45:14.702)

Almost have it as a run sheet in front of them, in front of you when you’re talking to them so that you are asking the specific questions, having them answer specifically how to address those questions, not just, here’s all, these are the things we can do because it is very easy to get distracted by the other bells and whistles.

Rod Bertino (45:26.776)

Yeah. The other we think good piece of advice we give our clients is when you’re talking to the vendors, the tech vendors, use the phrase often, show me, don’t tell me. Don’t tell me what it can do don’t tell me what it’s coming show me how it does because this is very new and a lot of stuff is being developed and it can do anything. Don’t tell me show me and if they can show you it in action then yeah you you probably on a stronger footing to move forward then I will build that for you you tell us what you want and we’ll build it yeah they may be able to do that but that’s fraught with danger and usually pretty expensive

Rob (46:20.314)

Absolutely. Now, something that you mentioned and that I didn’t know that you did, because I’ve known business health as benchmarking for years and years, but when we were chatting last, you talked about doing independent practice valuations and you were explicit about the fact that you’re not brokers. You’re not in this business of looking to put a value and help broker a transaction, which obviously comes with additional transaction costs. You’re really just not incentivized by the transaction. Why does that distinction matter? And what does your valuation process actually look like that a simple sort of revenue multiple might miss if people think about their valuation of their business?

Rod Bertino (47:00.674)

Yeah, it’s great question and the reason we do this is because the owners of advisory firms have spent a lifetime in a lot of occasions doing what they do, building a good business and they’ve been successful. So then the capital value is now generally in the millions of dollars. Now I don’t know about you or them but to us, they’re significant sums. When you start getting five, ten million dollars capital value then you need to treat that with respect. And whether you’re selling tomorrow, whether you’re selling equity to staff members, whether you’re thinking about merging. You’ve got to know, we believe you’ve got to know well what’s my business worth, what’s my starting point here and again while there’s firms out there that will give you a valuation they may have ulterior, or there may be additional transactions that they can help with a la broking or whatever which is fine, that’s their business model, it’s not ours. What we believe was missing and the gap we filled is we will give you an independent objective valuation of your business in writing end of story what you do with that is entirely up to you you can take it to a broker and put your business on the market you can discount it completely and say well business health have no idea what they’re doing we think our business that’s fine but the project we will undertake is to give you an independent objective valuation for no other reason than to produce that valuation report so we look at the things that drive value in today’s marketplace above and beyond the multiple of recurring revenue it’s the make up of that revenue it’s the client demographics. It’s where we were before it’s the team and the culture and the skill sets that you have in the team it’s it’s more than last year’s revenue it’s a three to five year history is there a trend are there thematic issues it’s compliance reports of course it’s client satisfaction if i’m going to spend millions and millions of dollars buying your business. It astounds us that one of the things buyers don’t look for is what do the clients think? and I know retention is an indicator but that’s a lag indicator…

Rob (49:35.62)

Yeah.

Rod Bertino (49:42.895)

… if i’m buying this business and there are some festering problems that haven’t manifested itself in attrition yet i might want to know that before i spend millions so our process is really thorough our process is far more than well let’s just multiply the recurring revenue by a multiple and give or take a couple of percent but we do that because we’ve been employed to provide an independent objective valuation of the business and if we’re going to put the business health brand on it it’s got to be high integrity reputable we’ve got to be able to put a hand on their heart and say well here’s why we arrived at that number.

Rob (50:27.866)

And what sort of timeframe would it take a business to go through that? Because it sounds very corporate. Let’s say they haven’t done a client investor review or survey in recent times. Will you then put your CAT scan process through that? So you go through that full rigorous process from top to bottom. So what’s typically the timeframe? And if you can, if it’s even possible to sort of start to draw some general themes as to what you see in that valuation process in terms of end results.

Rod Bertino (50:53.944)

Yeah. Interestingly, the time when there’s the timeliness. The thing that takes the most time rob is the firm being able to get us that granular data about either the client base or the revenue make up and i know it sounds pretty simple like tell us tell us about your clients how many clients what’s their date of birth where do they live but you’d be astounded the number of firms that have issues running off for us here’s our last twelve months revenue by client by type of revenue by product or solutions that tends to take some firms and an ordered amount of time to be able to get together but you can’t. In our view you’ve got to spend the time doing that otherwise we can’t do our job properly to arrive at a thorough valuation if we don’t know that and by the way if you’re looking to sell any prospective buyer they’re going to want to cover that in their due diligence process so you’re better off working with us to get it done than working with a potential buyer so that’s the thing that usually takes the most time once we’ve got all the data. Rob we’ve got a pretty robust process now so we can we can normally turn it around a couple of weeks from when we’ve got the data at an integrity level we’re comfortable with. The good firms of course can do that really quickly because they monitor it throughout the year. They know where their revenue is coming from, they know the make-up of their client base, they know what it looks like for them and they measure and manage that. So that’s the thing that generally takes the most time.

Rob (52:53.304)

Yeah, I can totally relate to that. We’ve got a dashboard that literally is a live update dashboard. So I can literally log in any time and see all of the data you’re describing because I wanna know what’s happening at any point in time, not just when someone asks me for it. what are you seeing? What are the characteristics of businesses that command the upper end of the range of valuations that you’re doing and what’s quietly killing the value of businesses that think they’re worth more than they are.

Rod Bertino (53:25.518)

Yep. I’ll go to the second one first. The thing that’s dragging valuations most commonly down at the moment is the aging client base. Not a lot you can do about that. In a way, you’re captive of your own success. You’ve been very successful 20 years ago at capturing people who may have been 50 and moving them through the life cycle, but they’re now 70 and 80 and…

Rob (53:35.29)

Yep.

Rod Bertino (53:55.023)

… i’m a big believer in all the court still have a bar street they’re just different advice needs it’s not accumulation super and life insurance and income protection so if you’ve got an aging client base where the majority of your fee revenue is being generated by all the clients and you don’t have the law a solution sweet that’s appealing to the needs of all the clients that’s not accumulation super life insurance and or you don’t have any relationship whatsoever the next generation where that wealth will pass because your older clients unfortunately at some stage are going to pass away so if you don’t know the kids or more importantly the kids don’t know you then that’s an enormous risk for a buyer and buyers now are factoring that risk into purchase price and or terms and conditions.

Rob (54:54.324)

Absolutely, I mean I think that’s the one that everyone would just go, totally understand if your clients are 70s and 80s predominantly, then the advice needs of that population are lower and also as you say the duration of how long they’ll be clients will also be compromised because it’s just purely based on their age. So.

Rod Bertino (55:17.837)

Yep. But firms, to mitigate that, firms are bringing in aged care specialists. They have strong relationships with attorneys that can draft wills. They spend a lot of time on estate planning and philanthropy and maybe even assist with travel and cruises. So older clients still have advice needs that they’re willing to pay for if they see value in it. But if your offer is super and life insurance

Rob (55:41.913)

Yeah.

Rod Bertino (55:48.258)

You’ve got seventy percent of your revenue coming from age seventy five and above that’s not the market isn’t going to pay you a premium for that

Rob (55:56.783)

Yeah, so what are the characteristic business that are commanding upper end of the range? What are businesses, the best of them, value that and why?

Rod Bertino (56:00.835)

Yep. They have a relatively short tail of low fee-paying clients. Now, no one has none because I think for all the reasons we’ve touched on but the firms that are attracting the highest multiples are charging appropriately so there’s no subsidization happening the buyer is not going to have to come in move relationships and increase fees at the same time because that’s fraught with danger there’s an appropriate skew across the age bands. So all firms will have older clients. In itself there’s nothing wrong with that but if you’re heavily skewed to that age demographic then the market will reflect that in terms of offer. They have good people that are really clear on their roles that have skill sets that a buyer can immediately see they can leverage and all the hygiene stuff they have a clean compliance record they’re not involved in products that sit way outside the norm or have had troubles with recently or in the past female advisors tend to be if there’s if the advisory team has a strong female representation currently that’s in demand. Personally I can see why i think one of their challenges as an industry is how do we bring in more really smart young female advisors because i think they do this job exceptionally well not to say men don’t do it well but i think there’s an unknown we’re missing an enormous opportunity by not making a lot of us profession more attractive to younger female advisors and we’re going to do a few things to make it attractive to them but if you’ve got younger quality female advisors who will come across with the acquisition then that’s definitely a plus as well.

Rob (58:12.792)

Yeah, I totally agree. I saw something recently and I’m just trying to think where I saw it, but there was a checklist of things that firms, I think it was coming out of the US actually, a bit of research and there was four things and I remember three of them that made the profile of a firm particularly attractive and you’ve just hit on them. One was an engaged team that’s where there’s almost like an equitized arrangement where they’re connected and staying for long term. So commitment, team commitment. Strong organic growth was a big one. Are they growing organically strongly? Have they got a good presence in the market? Are they getting a lot of new business coming through the door? And the other one, which you just mentioned, was about having a simplified investment solution. Something that’s easy to administer. If you’ve got a laborious investment process, it does detract from the value of your business, doesn’t it?

Rod Bertino (58:53.592)

Yeah. And the other thing Rob that we’re not saying a lot of to be honest anymore we used to is your technology platform. Xplan is the predominant marketplace player, most firms are using it but if you’ve built your own tech similar to if you’ve built your own investment solution and you and your programmer are the only two that really understand it or how to change it or how to get information out of it then buyers don’t particularly like that, that’s quite rightly that scares them. But if you’re running an Xplan for example well i know how to do that migration we run x planner a version there of so it’s one less complexity to worry with so you take your tech stack and you’re under blowing tech infrastructure potential buyers will closely at that as well and walk out.

Rob (59:57.091)

Yeah, that’s good advice, isn’t it? To keep on the beaten path if you want to become valuable to someone else at some point in the future. Now, I went to the Boutique Financial Planning Conference in Sydney a few weeks back and there was a lady there speaking, Cheyenne Walker. Yeah. And she referenced you and your team, said something really, really impactful, I thought, because that audience was full of self-licensed business owners. So I had to mention this because it was one of those moments everyone just sort of went, there’s a bit of silence and thought, wow, that’s a really very valid point. It’s the, I say this for the end, this is the last question, if that’s okay, right, I’ve kept you for a while and thank you for being persisting with me. A practice owner who is the sole responsible manager of their AFS or license might think their business is worth several million dollars, what actually happens to that value the moment they’re no longer there? And how many practice owners haven’t fully sat with the implications of that? The question was, if you’re not here tomorrow for ill health, some reason you can’t be in the business and you’re the sole RM, what happens to the value of that business, which is worth several million dollars perhaps the day before?

Rod Bertino (01:01:19.404)

Yep, it goes to zero generally. Now that’s the extreme and you’re right that’s why we get so passionate about this you know. And with the flight to self-licensed and for a lot of firms it is the right move for them to make. Not for every firm but for a lot of firms it’s the right move to make but if you’re the sole advisor, sole responsible manager of your license today, your business is worth five, ten million dollars, that’s true, we could sell it tomorrow but if you go under that proverbial bus potentially that capital value goes to zero and it goes very quickly because your business cannot continue to give advice when there’s no responsible manager if your business cannot give advice you cannot be paid fees for no service the business cannot appoint a new advisor because there’s no responsible manager so fee revenue stops clients need to be notified so they’ll start to quite rightly ask questions about well where does that leave me and I still need help advice so they will slowly drift away as well and as someone who who may work with finding a buyer for that business that’s a really hard sell to find a buyer who will not only buy the business but have have to have a conversation with every client about turning the fees back on and building a relationship so the short answer to your question is it goes to zero rob and all those years all that the career of building that business is destroyed in a heartbeat or when the heartbeat stops so we’re really passionate about this because we’re seeing more and more firms go self-licensed we’re seeing more and more of those be at the micro end and people aren’t thinking and putting appropriate plans in place to cover what happens if…

Rob (01:03:13.54)

Yeah.

Rod Bertino (01:03:36.129)

… I do go under the bus and i know one more to think about it and we all think we’re more to learn all that’s all that bad stuff’s gonna happen to other people the bad stuff happens to good people as well and we believe you have an obligation to your clients to your family and to your staff members to put a plan in place to address this and the plan can look different for different people but simply putting your head in the sand and hoping it doesn’t happen to me that’s not a strategy that you relying on luck and your luck will run out at some stage.

Rob (01:04:09.518)

Yeah, so if everyone listened to this episode, I hope you got this far on the episode and listened all the way to the end because that is a truly mic drop moment. And it was when it was mentioned at the conference as well, people just adorned on them the truth of that, which is that you cannot provide any advice from that moment. You cannot charge a fee from that moment. And literally everything’s grinds to a halt immediately on the passing of the one RM if that’s all you have. So yeah, I think.

Rod Bertino (01:04:34.956)

Yeah and if you trip if you truly do love your spouse role don’t leave them with a mess. they’re dealing with the grief of you passing and what that means for them and your family to then overlay this business mess you’ve left behind that’s not fair on them man, they deserve better because they’ve usually been a huge contributor to helping you build and grow this business over many many years and in return you leave them with a god-awful mess. No one wants that and no one does it deliberately but if you’re not addressing this and you are self-licensed then that’s the reality of the situation you could be creating. It’s not fair.

Rob (01:05:17.784)

Yeah, super valuable advice Rod. And it’s such a pleasure talking to you. You’ve been in this profession such a long time. 26 years is veteran status, you and the team. So you’ve seen so much, you’ve got so much wisdom to share. And I’m so grateful that you spent the time with me this morning on the Trust Advisor podcast.

Rod Bertino (01:05:35.342)

I really love the opportunity Robin. Hopefully the audience pick up just one or two ideas that they can go back and implement because there’s no money in a good idea you only get a return when you do it that helps them with their business. So congratulations on what you do I think it’s a fantastic service to help the profession and I’m delighted to be part of it. Thank you.

Rob (01:05:57.838)

Thanks again, Rod. It was a brilliant conversation. There’s more than one or two gems in there. So for everyone listening, you’re welcome. And thanks for taking the time, Rod. I really appreciate it.