In this episode, host Rob Pyne sits down with Paul Shepherd and Teneale Laister from Alman Partners, an award-winning financial planning firm. They explore what it takes to build a successful and sustainable financial planning business by focusing on team culture, leadership frameworks, succession planning, and client service excellence.

Paul and Teneale provide an in-depth look at their staggered generational ownership structure, their commitment to building a strong team culture through the Heartstyles framework, and how their “AP Way” methodology ensures consistency and accountability across the business.

For financial planning business owners seeking to create a high-performance firm driven by strong leadership, an empowering culture, and sustainable growth, this episode delivers valuable insights!

LISTEN

SHOW NOTES

Topics discussed

The path to industry recognition

Alman Partners’ journey to becoming a finalist in 2024 and a previous winner in 2022, of the Financial Advice Association Professional Practice of the Year Award.
The importance of pausing to reflect on achievements and celebrating team successes.
How industry awards serve as benchmarks for professional growth.

Succession planning and intergenerational ownership

How Alman Partners structured a staggered generational ownership transition to ensure long-term sustainability.
The importance of starting succession planning early and ensuring younger partners are financially and professionally supported.
How allowing future partners into boardroom discussions before taking ownership facilitates smoother transitions.

Leadership and behavioural development with Heartstyles

The initial challenges of implementing Heartstyles and how it transformed the firm’s culture.
The impact of self-awareness, continuous feedback, and growth mindset in personal and professional development.
How the Heartstyles 360-degree feedback system ensures sustainable leadership improvement.

The “AP Way”: A blueprint for consistency and excellence

The development of “The AP Way”, a structured set of 36 behaviours guiding team interactions and client commitments.
How the firm keeps culture and behaviours alive through weekly discussions, peer recognition, and structured feedback.
The integration of Heartstyles principles into performance management and team development programs.

Structuring teams for client success

The Diamond Team model: A structured approach to scalable, high-touch client service.
Pooled CSO (Client Service Officer) resourcing: Balancing client relationships with operational efficiency.
The critical role of the Client Service Manager (Janine) in workload balancing, training, and development.

Implementing frameworks for sustainable growth

The role of Employment Hero in tracking team progress, recognition, and performance assessments.
The balance between structured development processes and avoiding unnecessary complexity.
How ongoing professional development keeps employees engaged and aligned with business goals.

Quotes

Paul Shepherd: Treat your business like an investment and have a financial plan for yourself, just as you do for your clients.
Teneale Laister: The power of humility, collaboration, and continuous learning in building a thriving financial planning business.

Resources

Above the line – A behavioural framework by Steve & Mara Klemich
Scaling Culture by Ron Lovett
Employment Hero – HR software for team development & performance tracking

TRANSCRIPT

Rob Pyne

Welcome Paul Shepherd and Teneale Laister to The Trusted Adviser podcast.

Teneale Laister

Thanks for having us, Rob.

Paul Shepherd

Thanks, mate

Rob Pyne

Guys, I just want to begin with a warm congratulations to you both and the Alman Partners team for again being a finalist in 2024 for the Financial Advice Association Professional Practice of the Year Award, just reminding everyone that you also took out the top honour in 2022. What insights can you share with our listeners about the awards process and what it takes to be recognised at this level?

Teneale Laister

Yeah, look, it’s definitely a top honour to be amongst peers that are that are doing things really well, and it’s been exciting for us over the over the last few years to be so heavily involved, and we certainly reflect back on that, and so proud of our entire team. And there’s a really big part of it for us where we talk a bit about, you know, that gap and the gain. And I always think that an awards is a really great way of thinking about that, of stopping and taking a moment and looking back and going, look at all this that we’ve been able to achieve. Because, you know, every business that sets out with all their key milestones and projects that they want to do, and when we actually reflect back and look back at personally what we’ve built, and for the business, what we’ve built, my goodness, it’s it feels like such an amazing accomplishment. And I feel like the awards are a great way of being able to do that?

Rob Pyne

So speaking of that gap and gain, you speak about like, because the gap is always focusing on what we need to do to improve, and you’re always looking at where the gap is, but the gain is what you’re saying Teneale, there is, it’s a moment to stop and reflect upon what we have achieved, and for the team just to feel like, hey, yeah, we’ve come a long way, too, and often as advice, as we’re doing with our clients, aren’t we? They’re always looking about what they want to achieve. What they want to achieve, but giving the clients the chance to also reflect on what they’ve achieved is actually a really powerful sense of progress we all, as human beings want to achieve. Is that what you mean when you talk about the gap and game?

Teneale Laister

That’s exactly right. Rob, yeah, it’s as humans, we have this tendency to achieve one thing, and then it’s straight on to the next you know, we’re always trying to reach for the top of the mountain, but it is such a pleasure to be able to stop and share with those around you the successes of the combined So exactly what I mean there.

Paul Shepherd

Yeah, yeah, Rob, just first time, yeah, we you’ve been in the in the awards there too. Maybe you don’t start, start out to win an award. You just focus. Stay focused. Have a laser like focus on what you know, what you’re delivering, the service you’re doing to your clients, and making sure you create a an amazing work environment for your team and but exactly what Teneale said, the game is just stopping and reflecting and having a little bit of a benchmark around where you’re at. So, it’s a great process.

Rob Pyne

It really resonates with us. Yeah, it’s an opportunity for your team to be really proud of what they’ve achieved, because it is a team effort. Everything you do is a team effort, and they can go, hey, yeah, we’re doing pretty well this. We’re judged by our peers here to be achieving and being at a high level, so I totally can relate to that. And yeah, congratulations again, guys. It’s you’ve been up there now for a number of successive years, so clearly doing something very, very right now. We caught up last when you guys were in town. I think Teneale, you had something else on. But Shep and a few of the other guys came across, and we sat together in our boardroom in March 2024, and we spoke a bit about succession planning. We spoke a bit about our employee share plan. And, and I was really interested to hear more about what you guys are doing in that space you’ve been through what is really, what we’d call it, I guess, a staggered generational ownership structure. And, and I really like to dig into that, and just if you could explain how this model works in practice and how it helps sustain the firm’s vision and the culture over time.

Paul Shepherd

Yeah, absolutely no. I think go back 12 years or so Teneale, we had a bit of a pivotal point in our in our journey, where we really sat down and opened up what’s, you know, let’s have a deep dive into our value proposition and our vision, and what is it that all my partners looks like in the future and daunting, overwhelming sort of process. But I think when you look back that point in our history was a point where we said, well, this isn’t about us. You know, we can achieve everything in our plans and goals with what the business was then and if it kept going in its current form. But we could also achieve all of our goals and desires if we actually focused on our value proposition, which is peace of mind and confidence for our clients, because one of the biggest pieces that clients get worried about is their children and the transfer of knowledge and wealth to their children. So, if we were going to be true to our very. Value proposition for clients, then we need to think about the business differently and make sure that it could be sustained beyond the current generation. So, if we’re going to do that for our clients, then we need to think about that for the business. So, how do we successfully carry that value proposition and vision between generations? And I suppose that’s where it really kicked off. We were fortunate. We had a very thought leader in our founder that started the succession very early. And if there’s one, if there’s one thing that I would recommend out of all of this is start early, because the bigger, the bigger the equity position gets, the harder it is to implement a very well thought through and successful succession plan. So, I think, you know, when you think back, when I think back around, what kicked it off, it was, it was really having a true alignment to our value proposition for our clients, and then what does the business need to do to be able to fulfill on that? And that led us to the point where we said, okay, we really need to be thinking about an intergenerational equity transfer for the business to be able to continue this value proposition beyond us. And you know, I think that’s led to us thinking now, when you think who can afford equity, it’s always the older partners, because they’re more sustainable, or then, you know, the older but what we were talking about was introducing young partners. So, there’s a whole, whole raft of you know, decisions that need to go into. How do we support a younger partner and the equity position, they take on early and make sure that we’ve got their backs till they become senior partners and significant leaders in the business. So, I don’t know if I answered the question fully there, mate, but I know going back to that point was it was just a really focused, real deep focus on what’s our value proposition as a business, and then what is, what do we need to do at the leadership level to make sure it’s sustainable beyond us?

Rob Pyne

Yeah, there’s really strong parallels. There, isn’t there? You talked about clients wanting to transition their opportunity to their children, and essentially, it’s the parallel is really as business owners, you want to find the next strong, talented generation of people an opportunity also, and so Teneale, perhaps you can speak to that as one of those next generation talented people that are now a partner at Alman partners. What? What’s the practical application of this generational transfer, this staggered generational ownership transfer?

Teneale Laister

Yeah, I suppose, from a from a personal position, it’s it can be a huge step to move into something like this. And part of what we do really well is we have partners and equity owners that are very well aligned on a values front. And, you know, treat one another as if we would our own, our own life partners. So, one of the things that I feel was done really well as I was allowed to transition into the ownership structure was opening up the doors to the boardroom. So, it wasn’t, wasn’t a closed boardroom situation. Steve, Francis, Paul, Scott were all very good at recognizing that I had a desire to learn something more than where I was at that position in time, and to welcome me in and show me the ropes and let me see what happens on the other side of business ownership before I even stepped one foot in myself. And I think that’s a really unique way of making sure that there’s success in that transition, rather than it’s this big, big, cumbersome item that’s put on your desk one day and said, hey, all of a sudden, you’ve got to learn how to be a business owner overnight. So, that’s certainly been one aspect of the multi-generational partnership structure that’s, I feel has been quite successful.

Rob Pyne

Yeah, so, you had a really good glide path there. You weren’t sort of going from trying to be zero to hero. It was really the guys were really open. Wanted to welcome you into the full gamut of information about the business, how it was practicing, it was functioning and give you a give you that opportunity to better understand it and do that in a in a reasonable time frame, as opposed to it sort of being this big deal in one go. So, speaking of, I mean, you mentioned just there about just how there’s really strong cultural leadership there. I mean, for people to open up, that’s something. It speaks volumes of the guys running the firm to be open to not just, you know, keeping information to themselves, but actually really recognizing the strengths of people coming through and being open to sharing information with them. So, can we, can we talk a second about what really is, what defines the sort of core purpose and vision of Alman partners, you know? And how do you actually align all team members around those, those objectives that are defined in your core purpose and vision?

Paul Shepherd

We’re going back to like I said, back to 10 years ago or 12 years ago, Rob, we actually believe that we can’t good companies and bad companies put the same things on their walls, right? So, our culture is what everyone brings to the office each day. So, we, I suppose we spent some time defining what that is and what is our culture, and then I’ll talk later about, well, how do we nurture that, and how do we continue to carry that forward and be custodians of that? But we honestly believe that you don’t have a company culture, and people come and jump on it, and the company culture is what everyone brings to the office each day. So, it’s all-around behaviours and day to day, small things that that add up to a lot. And the other piece of it too is, is that we understand that there, there’s no such thing as, you know, I’m going to put on my work face when I walk through the door, and you are who you are. So, you know, I think, I think, in, you know, in the tough times when we were really, you know, I guess overloaded with work, it can be easy to not pay attention to the to the people and behaviours and because you’re just so busy. So, we need to find time and keep finding time to make sure that we’re there to support the team, there to have conversations and you know, and just encourage a very positive work environment, which you know, we’ll talk about how Heartstyles plays into that. But Teneale, I don’t know if you’ve got anything to add.

Teneale Laister

Yeah, I think back to where, where those, our value proposition and everything really stem from our vision, our purpose. Again, the inclusion of the team in that that entire process was, was probably the most critical part. So, on those planning days that we sat down together, we all did brainstorming every single member of the team, we sat down with pens and paper and whiteboards, and did brainstorming of, what are your values, what makes what would be exciting to you if you had to walk through the door every day for the rest of your career into an organization. What makes, what would make you really happy to do that? And what was amazing was the shared, shared vision that actually came out of them, and the idea of something that was much bigger than where we where we were at the time as well, too, which might have seemed very, very daunting, but in the same collective just an incredible way for us to band together and understand that we’re not here in the nine to five grind checking in and checking out. We’re trying to create something that’s amazing for ourselves and for our clients and for the community as a whole. So, I think that that’s powerful in and of itself, if you’ve got that collective buy in from the from the outset, and then, you know, we continue to have those days and those touch points that we can, we can continue to foster that with the team as well.

Rob Pyne

Yeah, that is amazing. I mean, just the example you’ve just given there, and obviously Paul spoke to it, as well, as just really engaging the whole team in what we want this to be like, for it to be amazing for all of us. What a powerful way to build a tremendous culture, which is clearly a great strength of your business. And we’ll talk more about how you’ve done that with specific frameworks and the like. But I’ve heard culture referred to as the combination of values, beliefs and behaviours and how they kind of tie in, and how, what do you do behaviourally that supports the core values you speak about as a business? And how do those things connect? And it’s what, what it what happens when you’re not in the room? They say that’s what culture is so well done on what you’ve achieved thus far. It’s, it really is quite inspiring. And, and I know we’ve spoken about it before, I’m gonna talk about it again today, just how much work you put into building just an amazing culture there. So, could, could we go there and perhaps discuss the specific frameworks you identified and implemented to achieve this kind of mission of being a really purpose driven organization where everyone’s on board and everyone really wants to deliver the value proposition?

Paul Shepherd

Yeah, I think, as you know, Rob, when, when you, when you think about business, you want to be able to have frameworks to lean on, to get the leverage and to make sure it’s sustainable. I think if you have a really good one, really good leader who can create a great team, you know that that’s great for that leader to bring. But how do you, how do you transfer it across offices, across, you know, across teams, across the whole business. So, you know, we have a really strong investment philosophy. So, that’s, you know, that’s quite, quite a good structure to build your whole planet business around. You’re the same. But then you think about culture, or. Stuff. What’s the structure that sits behind that? We were really good at bringing in some amazing facilitators and having some amazing days, but he didn’t really tie to anything. It didn’t really, you know, how does it all keep evolving? You can have great, great sessions, great days, but what’s the what’s the language? What’s the structure that sits behind it and fortunate enough that Steve Lowry, a long, long-term partner and now a chair, had some relationship or good friendship with Steve and Mara Klemich who are the founders of Heartstyles. And it was, it was very, very well implemented across, I forget what the group’s called to me, KFC, the owners of KFC,

Rob Pyne

Yum foods, is it? Yeah,

Paul Shepherd

across the globe. So, and we had a chat about, well, is that too big for us? Like, it’s a big you know? And then when we looked at it, all of the principles of it were exactly what we were hoping for. So, then it came about, how do we trickle this in? How do we start to build this to be the language, the, you know, the tools and the frameworks, that it’s a consistency across the whole business and, and I suppose that’s where it all came from, that framework. But you think, we think about frameworks and models as, okay, well, what’s the outcome we’re trying to achieve, and what’s the framework that sits behind it? So, consistency of client engagement with, you know, model and structure. So, it doesn’t matter, you know, which advisor, they’ll have their own personalities, but it’s a, it’s a structural framework that, when you come to all my partners, that’s, that’s the process you’ll go through. And then right down to organizational structure and frameworks. Well, how do we have advisor development pathways and CSO development pathways? Well, if we want to do that to be consistent and strong, then we need a structure. So, diamond teams comes out of that, and pooling of our CSOs come through that. So, so, yeah, we’re big on, you know, models and frameworks around, you know, once we understand the outcome, what’s the, what’s the structural framework that’s going to make it leverageable, scalable or to be sustainable? So

Rob Pyne

Yeah, totally. I’ve just started reading above the line by Stephen and Mara Klemich, so I it’s taken me a while to get to reading that. I’m not sure why. Perhaps I didn’t know the book existed until just very recently. So, I’ve been putting that in my years, most mornings, from the walk, and really enjoying it. I can see why you really adopted that methodology and built frameworks around it, because it’s there’s a real, authentic truth to the way they think about the way we all operate in the world, the four behavioural styles. And I can certainly see that, and we all can see that in our own lives, and just being more aware and being able to recognize how we’re reacting and where it’s coming from. They call it, is it situation plus template equals behaviour. So, what is your what is the template you’ve built, and how did the template arrive? And so, when the situation template sort of reconnect, your behaviour becomes a pattern. And so yeah, I’m really enjoying it, so I’ll put the link to that book in the show notes for people who want to listen to a really terrific book about human behaviour and how we can all be better.

Teneale Laister

It’s amazing. It’s definitely a great way to start your day.

Rob Pyne

It is, yeah, just it sets the tone really well. It’s, you know, when you’re if you’re in a morning, you know, just thinking about what the day looks like, and that’s going through your mind. It’s a it’s a really great beginning to being very conscious and intentional about the way you live your life and interact with others. So, I’m loving it. So, I can see why you guys are very much embedded into your business. So, you know, at all months you talk about frameworks there you’ve developed what you call the AP way it covers dirty behaviours and commitments to clients and each other. How did you develop those behaviours? And perhaps it was one of those off sites and the team getting together and working, working that through together. But how did you, how did you develop those behaviours and integrate them with the Heartstyles, methodology that you adopted to foster that professional and personal growth in the team.

Teneale Laister

It’s kind of a I reflected on what we’ve done really well as a business over time, and I think I used to kind of think about it like the Titanic, but I think there’s a more eloquent way of me saying this so where I don’t think that Alman partners has ever been the Thomas Edison’s or Alexander Bells. You know, we haven’t been the inventors, but rather more like Steve Jobs, and we’ve been really good implementers. So, we’ve, I think what we’ve done is learned from others in the profession, you know, people that run amazing businesses and then taken away and integrated. What we could into the Alman partners way. And I suppose, Paul, maybe you want to talk a little bit to the Alman partners way, and what that means and how that came about.

Paul Shepherd

Yeah. So, once again, Steve, Steve brought back, went to visit one of the firms around the globe, leading firms, and take away nuggets like we do. Similar when you do firm visits, rob you sometimes it’s just the observation of something in the office that’s the biggest takeaway, not the content that’s presented or anything. And Steve came across this firm that wasn’t necessarily in financial planning, I don’t even believe but it was just one of the leading firms of culture, and he noticed that they have this thing called their way, and it was, you know, a list of what it what it looked like, what it felt like to work there. So, we sat down and said, that’s, this is a great concept, and we’ve got Heartstyles. So, really, it’s just, what is, what is Heartstyles? And our, you know, drive for five stars, and our Kaizen, and continuous improvement, all these pieces of who all my partners are. How do we get that into what? What does it look like? You know, what does it feel like on a day-to-day basis? And you know, that started to get, got a bit longer than we initially started out to, I think there’s 36 items in there, but, you know, it’s just a fantastic way of saying, Well, when you read this, is this a place that you know, would you like to work at, you know, and is this, does this resonate with you as being, you know, as a fun, motivating place to work? So, we, we try to keep that alive. So, I think it’s a good way of keeping Heartstyles alive, because it’s, you know, we’re trying to tie most of our weeks to it. So, on our weekly meetings, team meeting, there’s, we pick off two, and we try to find, you know, who, what are some examples in the last you know week that someone’s, you know, someone’s, you know, behaved or done something that that that aligned with those, those two AP way items, and more recently, from employment hero, we’re now doing shout outs and rewards for, you know, continuous behaviour and linking that to which, which AP way item was it? So, it’s, you know, trying to just keep it alive, people keep, keep the focus on this is how we this is how we operate at all my partners, and it’s been, it’s been effective, and, you know, we’re proud of it

Rob Pyne

Yeah, clearly, it’s, it’s keeping it alive. It’s important. You said right back earlier there, Paul, that that often you’ll hear a great speaker, and they’ll say some wonderful things. You get enthusiastic about what they’re sharing, and come back from a conference, and it’s actually the execution of it on a consistent basis that makes it really work, doesn’t it? That’s what that’s the difference between great ideas and much like financial advisors, if you see an advisor and they give you great advice, but no one there executes on the advice. The ideas are worthless. I mean, it’s really got to be execution that matters most in that scenario. You’ve got to have the right framework, the right ideas, but ultimately, it’s in the follow through. And how do you make it, how do you embed it into your business? How do you make it a part of your way to that way of living? And that’s what really makes the makes the difference. So, do you you’ve got employment here? You mentioned there, Paul, do you have you embedded those questions in your 360-degree snapshot? Do you do the 360-degree snapshot of individual behaviours and look for ways to kind of reinforce the message there in a structured way? Or is it the twice a week you’re looking for opportunities to shout out? Or is it combination of both those things that keeps it alive inside the business,

Paul Shepherd

Our 360 survey and the feedback approach is all through Heartstyles, it’s the Heartstyles. Tool, Rob, I know that there’s functionality in Employment Hero, to actually do 360s on that kind of approach too. We’ve kind of held back a little bit from that, because we think we get amazing insights and personal perspectives from the 360 Heartstyles surveys. So, so, yeah, we haven’t, haven’t used heart-what do you call it?

Rob Pyne

Employment hero.

Paul Shepherd

Employment Hero for the 360 functions. Mate, no, but, and it’s not that we haven’t looked at it, or I think we’ve, we’ve, we get some, if we could attend to everything that comes out of a Heartstyles survey and all the opportunity to work on, I think there’s, there’s. Plenty there. So, survey fatigue too. You know, in the team we do a big culture, full business culture survey once a year, which is around satisfaction and things you’re doing. And then we do the Heartstyles every you know, it’s a full 360 every second year, but we do Heartstyles sessions, you know, every six months, pretty much so kind of touching on it all the time, and at the meetings, we use the AP way as the way of making it visible. And, you know, recognize, recognition across the business. So-

Teneale Laister

Effectively Paul, when you’re talking about in Employment Hero, the shout outs and recognition sort of features that are used that way. That’s the that’s just the 111, to many, sort of way of recognizing people for the amazing behaviours that they they’re doing, which are aligned to those AP way principles and also, there’s, you know, like Paul said, there’s kind of the reward system that comes with that as well too. Where you’re earning points for your for your recognition from your peers and from your leaders and the 360 framework. Then with our one on one squarely fits in with the with the Heartstyles, where, as part of Heartstyles, you get the ability to get direct feedback from those around you about the behaviours that that they’re witnessing, and it gives you the ability to then sort of make a bit of a plan for the things that I’d like to do to be living a life above the line. And that’s the 360 framework that we’re building into that we build into our one on ones. So, there’s always takeaway items that each, each of us has from those Heartstyles sessions that we will do and now, and we’ll build that back into our one at once to say, well, you know, what am I actively working on and how? How can I be reaching out for mentorship from the leaders there, to be able to find ways of, of trying to show what’s actually in my heart and my true intention, rather than the behaviours that might be have been witnessed at times.

Rob Pyne

Yeah, and Teneale, can you speak a bit more about that? The one on ones you do? How often you do them? Obviously, you’ve embedded the questions around how to continue to operate above the line in that process. How often do you do one on ones? And I’ll just reflect quickly here, on a couple of things, just based on what you both just said, that is that, you know, there is no shortage of things to be doing to improve. There’s always things we can do to improve. And so, you don’t need to. You’re looking for other frameworks and new shiny toys. Do you it’s about consistently applying the methods and the training, I guess, that comes out of the Heartstyles process, that it’s just about continuing to lean into that and look for ways to continue to use that framework to elevate the personal and professional growth of everyone in the team. So, I can really relate to that. And not looking around, you know, forever looking for some magic bullet. It’s, you know, some sort of bullet. It’s really about having a framework and then applying it consistently that actually drives the behavioural change you’re looking for. So, the one on ones so crucial, I think, and something we’re doing more of now. And you guys really spoke of that last year when we caught up, and it’s something we weren’t doing consistently enough. We were doing regular performance. You know, check ins. We call them progress update meetings to see how people are progressing. What’s working for you, what’s not working, what do you want to work on? Goals and so on. But the one on ones, can you tell talk a bit about how often you do them, and give me a bit of an insight into how they how they operate.

Teneale Laister

Yeah. So, we sort of break it down to our relationship advisors that that run each of our diamond teams, or our leaders. So CSO manager and team leads, they’ll be meeting with their team members in a few different ways. First of all, quarterly based on the bigger scale, I guess, tangible KPIs, if you’d like to call it that. So, the goals that each of the team members have set for themselves for the year that they want to achieve, and one of those will be around Heartstyles and the work they’re doing in that space. One will be around education, ongoing training, any of those sort of factors they all play into the quarterly one on one space. So, there’s a bit of a larger quarterly one on one but then, as a minimum, we are meeting for one on ones monthly with everyone to have a really good check in and make sure that if there’s anything that they need to be speaking about, that they’ve got the open floor to do so, and that’s really based around where are you now? What resources may you need to be able to get to where you want to be? What mentorship do we need to be looking at those kinds of. Things, and sometimes it can be even more regularly than that. So, for example, our associates that really need a lot of time because they’re training to be financial advisors. We’re meeting with them fortnightly because they really need constant check ins, particularly as they’re going through, they’re doing all their professional year so they’re doing log booking and all of that. So, we really think that it’s the ability to stop and pause and go the time. The time is the team members, they have the right to be able to call out and say, hey, it’s time for us to have a quick chat. And that can be completely personal, or it could be completely, you know, KPIs based, depending on where they’re at in a particular time. So, yeah

Rob Pyne

yeah. And, sorry did you want to jump in?

Paul Shepherd

no, I was gonna say, I’m glad you asked Teneale there, because put so much time into that whole process. And it’s amazing. We’ve, we’ve gone from, I think you’d understand too, Rob, when, when you build lots of structure around development, it can become a job on its own. Like,

Rob Pyne

that’s the question that springs to mind, yeah,

Paul Shepherd

Yeah, and what’s, what’s a happy medium, what’s a reasonable amount of, you know, prep, how can we get employment hero to help us? And, you know, bring it down to just a really good conversation, but some good prep has been done to have the conversation. And like everything Teneale does, puts a lot of thought into it and implements it thoroughly. So, I think we’re in a better place we were a couple of years ago, because to do a review was a big job. And, you know, got it all this, and got to document it all and do a File note. And now with we’ve tried to simplify it down to just, let’s pick off two, two for personal development, two for professional development, two for growth. And where are you at? And keep it, keep it tight. So, she’s done an amazing job

Rob Pyne

Yeah, no, I can tell, and I can totally relate to what you just described, because we’ve only had Employment Hero in our business for less than 12 months, and we’ve really lean into it heavily, or looking to build, again, a framework, a system that you actually can lean on and not have to reinvent the wheel every time and have a really long conversation that doesn’t sort of necessarily hit on key points and behaviours that you want to repeat and reinforce. So we’ve just completed our half yearly progress updates with our team through late December and January, and I’ll ask Teneale this question, but we’ve got someone that’s kind of taken a bit of responsibility in our team now to develop progress update reports for our team that catalogue what they’ve talked about, what’s working for them, what’s not working, what they want to work on, how they’re we do a 360 behavioural thing like you do with Heartstyles, and we do A skills matrix that with their team members working with them, actually assess how they’re tracking in terms of written communication, verbal communication, and all the things that are skills based on that role they’re in, and tying it all together. Having a structure to it made the process so much more manageable from what was otherwise like. You know, here we go again. This is such a huge if it’s like a month’s worth of work, and so I’m really pleased that Teneale, are you that person at AP that’s kind of doing the prep and sort of guiding and shaping the implementation of the behaviour and the skills assessments and so on that people are being assessed by and I gather the one on one. So, there’s two questions here. And so, is it you? And then also for the one on ones, I gather it’s the RMS, the relationship managers of the diamond teams. It’s kind of the primary person in the room having those conversations with a team member. And is it that person together with you, Teneale, is it the two-person sort of support for the team and their professional development conversations?

Teneale Laister

Yeah, they’re great questions. There’s probably a few things that I’ll talk about in there. So yes, from our diamond teams, for our advisor teams, our relationship advisors, so head of each diamond are the ones that ultimately are holding the one on ones, recording the information. Now, because our business, there’s a few things in this, because our business operates in two locations at the moment and we don’t we have pooled CSO resourcing, and so we’ve been very mindful of not creating silos as we go as well. So, part of this is I sort of take the RA lead in that space, to develop those frameworks, and then to roll that out across each of the diamond team, so that across the board, we’re all doing the same things. So yes, from that regard, that’s sort of what I’ve built in there, and how we utilize that. We didn’t have that for our C. So, management, so our CSO manager looks after the CSO pool team, Operations Management and our power planning teams as well. So, the leads will look after those one on ones in the development and how that works, and effectively, when it comes to the creation of the content. I also sit in the training and development manager role and work closely with Nadine, and she is the one that’s taking on a lot of the training and development from a technical aspect. So, there’s kind of a two-pronged approach there, where you’re talking about the core competencies we have, you know, advisor competency spreadsheet that goes through each of the different areas that our advisors need to be well versed on. So, it is a bit of a combination of roll out when it comes to anything like that, where it’s done at the at the RA management level and then taken to each of the team so that we’re all doing the same thing. If that kind of helps answer that question, a bit

Rob Pyne

it does. Yeah, can I touch on that tool, CSO resourcing, and talk a bit about, perhaps, power planning as well, and the diamond team structure, because it’s a really, it’s one of those areas people are always really curious about understanding. Certainly, we have always been curious about it. So pooled CSO resourcing, do they essentially simply pick up the next job across any client as the work comes through, so you load balance really effectively that way, or is it kind of more of a loose connection of CSOs to certain diamond teams? How do you how do you deal with that?

Teneale Laister

it is an interesting space. So previously, we had CSOs that worked with advisors, and they worked on it, on teams of clients. So they were, were linked to the client. We know that there’s two functions that come through the CSO and the administration team. One is a ticketed style of work, and one is a relationship style of work. So, because our CSOs are tasked, first and foremost, withholding the relationship for clients, we felt that it was very important that they kept their kept their relationship to the client. So as much as they’re in a pill format, each of the client each of the CSOs are allocated to clients. So, in the first their first priority is always the client work that comes through for their clients. So, they’ll, they’ll, you know, once the diaries, Calendly is booked in their diaries, and that’s what they’re running by, is looking after the client that way, making the phone calls and looking after all of that. And then from it, purely from a we haven’t got a ticketed approach as such, to those transactionary style items that can be, you know, ad hoc based. So, in the first and foremost, they’re looking after all of the throughput for each of the clients. So, taking everything through to implementation, but they also work in a in a pilled resource, where our client service manager will allocate on a per job basis, where there’s wherever there’s capacity constraints or need for movement of work. So yes, it’s a lot of those ticketed items which then end up being spaced back around wherever the capacity lies. But we do focus a lot on what capacity looks like, and making sure that no nobody is ever at 100% 90% you know, we’re targeting for that sort of 70 to 80% range of capacity to allow for the fact that relationship needs to be there first and foremost, and we can’t just have people churning through work and not being able to put clients as number one priority.

Rob Pyne

Yeah, so I think we may have picked up this relationship connection for the CSOs from you guys, because we do what you’re describing, which is to say they have a dedicated group of clients that they are a relationship manager at the CSO level with a group of clients, and that might mean they’re across two advisors, but those clients are seen as their clients, and I think we might have got that from you, so we’ve applied that too, and it’s working particularly well. But also want to mention that you mentioned this client service manager, and that has, for us, been something we’ve looked at. It’s really a crucial role. It’s one that’s about training and developing client service officers, obviously, client service associates. But also, do you is that person also responsible for covering leave, as well as doing the load balancing and sort of, you know, dividing the workload up? Are they covering for gaps when people are away, or there’s someone sick and, you know, they’re are they kind of a fix it person, if you like, as necessary, because that’s when a lot of businesses really begin to struggle. When they’ve got a key person, and everyone in the business is key. Well, you got a big business, you probably can absorb it. No, they’re there because we need them. So, when they’re not there, we have a problem. So, do is your client service manager, that person that will be able to step in? Cover for people of being away in the client services team.

Teneale Laister

Yeah, our client service manager, a lot of our roles in the business have been built throughput, rather than bringing somebody else outside the business in and then flocking them into a management role or something like that. So, our client service manager, Janine was a client service officer who worked her way into the into that that space. So, yes, effectively, her tasking is to do all of the capacity indications, the movement of clients. But so, you know, somebody’s finding that they’re getting to a capacity point, moving clients over to other CSOs, doing the training pathway. So, the CSO development plans are all done by Janine, all the process automations and creation in terms of what that should look like. And how do we take all those tasks off the human and put them on the robots that we can so effectively? Yes, we have somebody that’s in that space, managing, orchestrating it all, but also has the ability to step back in as is needed, though, that is 100% not the idea of the role. Let’s put it that way.

Rob Pyne

I just would have to say that every business needs a Janine. That role is so crucial, isn’t it, and to training new people coming through, helping to load balance, just covering for development gaps and so on so and even just doing the extent that you talked about, you know, being able to reallocate clients as necessary to make sure no one’s overloaded. That role is so important, and we know it from the firsthand experience. And we, like you, have developed someone through that actually has gone now even beyond, perhaps gone from the role of a client service officer, which they were, into the Janine role, the client service manager role, and now they’ve actually elevated even into what sounds more like your role, Janine in our business. So, we’re always looking for people to come through and develop as well, but we’re certainly needing to plug the gap that the client service manager role is so important, isn’t it?

Teneale Laister

And Rob one other thing I should say in that space too is that, because we don’t just want there to be, you sort of mentioned having one person in the role. If they’re not there, the whole world collapses around it. So even if we in the advisor space and the CSO space don’t have a CSO lead or a relationship advisor, but we’ve got senior advisors with really great skill set, or senior CSOs with really great skill set. We do have pathways for them to not have to be a team lead, but to be leaders still, and to be able to specialize and to train and to bring those the strengths that they have, in gelling the rest of the team together as well, and in being very helpful and to the to the actual team leads. Also, if they’re not there, there’s, there are those seniors that can step in and do as well.

Paul Shepherd

Yeah, we were talking about Janine’s role mate is easily the hardest job in the business. And as it evolves and you get more clarity around all those pieces that she’s doing, what somebody else talking about there is now using the seniors to come through and think about, okay, well, there’s a strength. There’s a strength here in the scheduling part, where the organizing of workflow, there’s a strength here and the people, how do we, how do we use those strengths to start taking a bit of load off Janine, because she can’t continue to be the pick up all the pieces and do the work, and when, when she has a sick day, that’s when we all start thinking awry,

Rob Pyne

yeah, I think you’ve made, you both made a really great point there, which is that leadership is a job for everyone. Leadership is not about, you know, someone who’s kind of the leadership level in a traditional sense but encouraging everyone to be a leader in in whatever case they can be and giving people the space to develop themselves professionally and personally and become a leader and take responsibility. Is a great strength of firms. I think that do it well, and it actually means that people feel like they are themselves, progressing and being responsible, and not just being tasked, but actually taking the opportunity. And one of our core values is about taking ownership, and we encourage people to take ownership. And that’s really goes to that leadership principle. Leadership principle strongly. So can I just push back a second and just think more about this maintaining culture, which you’ve spent a lot of time developing, and obviously have now a wonderful culture and the implementation of that Heartstyles process, Paul, you’ve shared with me that it’s not always a smooth ride, because there are people who perhaps aren’t ready to open up and be vulnerable and actually step into a more open hearted approach to working with their colleagues. And so can you just share a little bit for our listeners, what that. Process felt like and worked like in that, in that transitional period where and now, and also just reflect on just how far you’ve come as a consequence of implementation of Heartstyles. Because I think it’s a really wonderful story. You know, started bumpy, but I’ll let you share that, and then just how much it’s transformed your business.

Paul Shepherd

Yeah so, I guess we didn’t know what we were getting ourselves into when we first rolled it out. It’s one thing for all the leaders in the business. And probably the biggest learning I really use Rob that is a differentiator between who will come on and embrace Heartstyles and self-development, self-growth. And it comes back to growth, growth mindset versus fixed mindset. So, so, you know, I think growth as a human being is mandatory at all my partners are. You want to come here? You’re going to grow. You want to be better. You want to be, you know, improve what you’re doing doesn’t mean you need to keep progressing through a career path, but you’ve just got a desire to be a better human, you know, or better at what you do. And so, I think, I think, I think that that connection in my head over the years has become clear around the people who join our team that struggled most probably have a more of a fixed mindset than the growth mindset. But yeah, I’ll rewind back to the early days when we first rolled this out, and the how confronting it was to one look at look at your own behaviours. So very quickly, the listeners explain you pretty much assess a benchmark of what you think very effective behaviour looks like, and that’s your personal behaviours and how you act towards others. And then you go and feel like, oh, how do I see myself acting? So, you’ve got a benchmark that you think this is what ideal looks like. And then you go, and you fill out the next part of the survey, which is, how do I behave? How do I think I behave in amongst all this? So, you know, with this, where am I at, versus the benchmark that I set for a really effective behaviour that alone is confronting? Then you go and get a 360 where you know, you get other you know, your managers, your peers, and the people you work with, you get their perspective on your behaviours. So that’s another confronting piece around going well, we know that the only thing that gets between our intention, our gold intentions, and someone not receiving that gold is communication and behaviour. So, when you, when you start to think about, we judge ourselves by our intentions, but we judge others by their behaviours.

Rob Pyne

Yeah, great point

Paul Shepherd

Yeah, so, when you get that feedback, you know, you can either say, okay, well, I can take something from this. And the beauty about Heartstyles is it gives you lots of tools, too, around receiving feedback, and, you know, acronyms around, you know, yes, first you’re surprised, then you know, you’re angry, and then, yeah, you’re going to go through, when you get feedback, this is the process you go through. So, you’re equipped with all the tools and processes. Doesn’t mean they’re easy, but so yeah, going back in the early days when we first rolled this out, if we had our time again, we probably wouldn’t have got the pier. You know, the 360 would have just started with us, and then we probably learned that for new starters. But the ability for the team to take that feedback on and want to use it constructively, I think there was some turnover that we received early on. That kind of hurt, I would say hurt us in terms of really efficient people in the business and, but I think when we look back and we got through that tough period, culture is so important, you know, we want to, we want to, love to be the centre of our business. And you know, when a client walks through the door, they can feel it, they can see it. No one’s acting differently. They’re just being themselves. So when you start to embed that those kind of people in your business, and over time, you end up in a place where our last Heartstyles tone will probably vouch for it was probably good, goose bumps thinking about around how much the that that first generation of the team that were here in the early days, that are still here, and then how they’re conveying to the new team members, you know, some concepts and learnings over time, around just becoming, you know, being better Humans and communicating more effectively. And it’s, it’s empowering, but, but, yeah, going back to the challenge of Heartstyles, is, how are you seeing yourself against? You know, step one is, how are you seeing yourself, your own behaviour against what you see is as a benchmark. And. You know, if you’re feel committed to improving your communication and your behaviours and to be just what you want to be, that’s a great place to start. And then you go and add in, okay, well, how are people perceiving my intentions? And you know, that’s just a skill that, you know, if everyone could have that coaching early in their life. You know, it’s just, there’s no, there’s no downside. I don’t think so.

Rob Pyne

Yeah, do you wanna add?

Teneale Laister

You know I think personally, you know, Heartstyles, what I think is amazing about it is that we’ve, we’ve done lots of different profiling tools in my time here at Almans, we’ve had lots of different profiling tools that we’ve used, and they’ve all got their own merits and their own areas that they can really lend to in the business. But what, what is unique about Heartstyles is that it’s first and foremost, a personal development tool. It’s not something that we are employing asking people to turn up to Almans and go through this, this program here and be a certain way at work and it’s not for the benefit of the business solely. Yes, it’s a huge benefit to the business when everybody turns up with it a cultural alignment and wants to be here and is coming from a place of love. But the way that it helps every person, in their individual self, in their entire life, is what I think is just unique about it. And I think that’s the most powerful piece that when, when you feel Heartstyles first you feel it in an organization and people know all about this. There’s just certain places that you want to go to and people that you want to be around, and you can’t put your finger on what it is. It’s not tangible, but you can feel it. And that’s what Heartstyles has done for our business.

Rob Pyne

Brilliantly put Teneale, and I just want to just repeat what you said there as well, Paul, just on that point, you said, we judge ourselves by our intentions and others by their actions or behaviours. Think there’s such a profound wisdom in that to think about people often will be behaving in a way where their intention is getting mixed. You know, the mix is coming out, and I think it’s, I think you got something else you want to add there, Paul, and please do because I just think it’s such a what you both just said. And we’ll wrap up with the final question in a second. What you both just said is, really, people should take a second to rewind and listen to that again, because it’s just so powerful a message around it’s about personal development first, because ultimately, that is what leads to you being a better and you know, above the line human being with others that you interact with, and that’s got to be good for the workplace.

Paul Shepherd

So, yeah, no, I love that. So well put Yeah, I was just going to close Rob, I know we’ve had chats previously just around the development piece then, and how different it is when you come to a, you know, personal development meeting where the supervisor is telling you what you need to work on, versus you coming to the meeting going well, this is what I want to work on, in terms of my journey around, you know, being above The line. That’s it’s I’ve been on both sides of work in the corporate world and understand how that works. And this is pretty special when people come with their own this is the feedback I got on this is what I want to work on.

Rob Pyne

I love that, wise words, indeed. And I think people don’t know the difference if they haven’t experienced it, but I think you what you’ve done both, both of you, then just articulate it really, really well for people to kind of just let that sink in. I’m listening to a book just as a bit of an aside that I just started listening to recently, as well as just before, above the line, and it was called Scaling culture by Ron Lovett, and it’s a similar thing that it’s about, you know, you can scale culture and so you clearly have got embedded, the frameworks, the systems and the methods to actually bring the best out of people and really grow your business and become a success. You know, continue to be successful as you continue to grow your business. So as we wrap up here, I just want to ask one final question of both of you, if you want to speak to this question, which is, you know, for financial planning businesses like yours, or that want to be like yours, or want to elevate their practice and create a lasting impact on their team as well as the clients you interact with, what advice? What one sort of piece of wisdom would you offer based on your own journey and success as a business?

Paul Shepherd

I’ll kick off Teneale. Rob, I think my journey has been one of corporate project management, where I had a fortune of my father telling me to come sit down with a financial planner from the age of 18 and do as you’re told, probably the best advice he’s ever given me. And then so I’ve had a financial plan. I’ve had a financial planner for 12-14, years, before changing profession. And what probably surprises me most is the amount of financial planners or business owners who don’t have their own financial plan. Their own financial advisor. And what I think I observe that’s challenging, I suppose, for me, or surprising for me, is that we, we sit in front of clients every day of the week and we talk about, you know, being objective about their planning and I’m having conversations all the time with business owner clients saying that you know your business is an investment that’s going to feed into your true wealth, your life. So, what, what you need your business to do to be able to achieve that, and not on debt attendance. It’s much more than they need, which then leads to them having thinking differently about their business. They just go and do their business plan, and they need it, right? They need growth of 15% for what so? So, I guess what’s the biggest learning is, is understand that your business is an investment for you to be able to live the life that you want to live, have your financial plan, and then it’s amazing, the different perspective you take on the business, and it being able to carry on and continue delivering the value that it does as a business, beyond you. And, you know, I think if you can think objectively like that, as opposed to, you know, it’s, it’s my job, it’s my you know, it’s everything. It’s going to feed into your life, and it’s going to feed into your plan. And just like we do for clients. So biggest, biggest learning for me is think about your business exactly like you think about your clients, and you’ll find that the priorities become a lot clearer, and the flexibility in what you’re trying to achieve is probably a lot more than you think it is.

Rob Pyne

Yeah, great advice. Teneale, what about your thoughts? There about, yeah

Teneale Laister

That was, that was that was really great Paul, because I was just going to say, you know, knowing your why, knowing your why is really, really critical. And just to reiterate everything Paul said. And I think a big part for business owners is being able to come from a place of humility, you know, removing the ego we’ve never been ashamed to speak about where we’ve had challenges. You know, what challenges we’re facing and being open and sharing with those around us, the success of all my partners doesn’t come to the detriment of anybody else in our profession. And, you know, financial planning, we’re in such a unique position now that there’s too few financial planners and too many clients in need of advice. So, building the entire profession leaning on one another and helping and growing, you know, committing to Kaizen, that continual improvement, I think that’s just the best way of creating a brilliant business

Rob Pyne

Yeah, it’s a little wonder that you are growing successfully and created a great culture, because that mindset, it’s just infectious. People want to be part of that. They want to live that way. They want to work in a place that actually thinks like that. So again, congratulations, Paul and Teneale. Wonderful talking to you both today. I really enjoy always talking to you, and I know our listeners will as well. So, appreciate your time, guys today, brilliant conversation and really, really important message of people to take away from that. So again, congratulations on being so successful in what is a wonderful profession that we operate in.

Paul Shepherd

Thanks so much, Rob. Thanks for listening. Thanks for making it easy.